Monday, March 16, 2009

The Meaning of Christian Freedom vs. Objectivism

[The names have been changed to protect the innocent.] Marsha Now, who is more irrational: the person who believes in a God who they cannot see, or the atheist who is offended by a God they do not believe in?" 1:29pm Susan at 1:37pm March 16 Who says atheists are offended? Tim at 1:48pm March 16 An (adult) person who believes in a God that they have no real reason to believe in is, in my opinion, more irrational than the atheist who reacts defensively to actual persecution by so-called followers of God. I don't believe that there are very many atheists who are offended by God without having a reason for it. Insensitive statements (or, in this case, assumptive questions) do not help atheists to differentiate a loving God from some of his well-meaning, but uncaring followers. Susan at 1:52pm March 16 Well put Tim. Abby at 1:56pm March 16 Listen to Christopher Hitchens. I'd say he's beyond offended! Abby at 2:07pm March 16 Didn't see your comment, Tim. Yes, very well put. I just watched a debate with Hitchens. Does any one know why he hates religion? What happened to sour him so much? Is it more than he just doesn't want to be accountable to anyone? Arthur at 2:14pm March 16 throughout history, atheists have persecuted christians more than christians(and those christians were perhaps not true christians). Russian communists or German Nazis, they where self-declared atheists, and they persecuted thousands if not millions of christians physically, not verbally. Are Christians persecuting atheists by not agreeing with them? When did christians really persecute atheists? If Atheists are not offended by God, then why do they continue to fight him. I don't stress myself over what Buddhists claim is god or that sort of thing, because it isn't true. But atheists are very p/o'd over the fact that christians believe in God. I think it is persecution to not be able to have dual viewpoints presented in education concerning the origin of life. Why is it illegal for a teacher to pray with a student on the campus? these are true examples, and i could show many more. I think the atheist who fights against God like a kid who fights imaginary indians. Arthur at 2:22pm March 16 *than christians have persecuted atheists Tim at 2:26pm March 16 Arthur, misrepresenting someone else's point of view is, in my book, persecution. No, it's not the Spanish Inquisition, but it sure makes people feel like you don't care what their actual hang-ups are, you just want them to conform to your dogma. From the Wikipedia page on Christopher Hitchens under Antitheism: "His main argument is that the concept of God or Supreme Being is a totalitarian belief that destroys individual freedom." It would seem that this man likes to misrepresent Christianity. Or, perhaps, in his entire experience of Christians, he has never noticed any who are observably "free" in the sense of Galatians. I think the best way to counter this kind of misrepresentation is to be innocent of the criticism, not to respond in kind. Does my belief in God boil down to a mere set of restrictive rules? If so, then he is right about me. Abby at 2:33pm March 16 Thanks, Tim! Isn't it grand that our "set of rules" are so amazingly freeing?!! Arthur at 2:38pm March 16 Well if God destroys individual freedom, explain communism and fascism, and other dictatorial governments based on un-Biblical principals and bent on destroying Christianity;whereas the U.S., found on biblical principles as much as people will deny it, has the most freedoms enjoyed by its citizens not subjects. You say we misrepresent others viewpoints? Well who said Christians have a mere set of restrictive rules? I feel more free than any drug addict, who didn't need to be governed by "restrictive rules"; and is now a slave to some narcotic. I feel more free than most non-christians, knowing that if I die i would be in a better place, and am therefore free of fear to die. Some are scared of his cause it causes cancer or that causes it gives you such a deadly disease, but I can be free from fear through becoming a Christian. I think it completely bizarre that someone could be so blind as to believe Christians are totalitarian. true Christians are anything but that. Arthur at 2:40pm March 16 Yes [Abby], i agree these rules make us free. So many people think they are free by not following them, but they are stuck in slavery. Tim at 2:51pm March 16 Arthur, I'm really glad I'm already a Christian, because if I weren't nothing you have said would make me want to be one. It's possible to see marriage as a set of restrictive rules. We even recite and promise to keep these rules in our wedding vows. But marriage is meant to be a relationship, not a set of rules. The "rules" describe what the relationship looks like when it is done properly: it does not proscribe that by following the rules, you will have done it right. The difference is in motivation: I am faithful to my wife because I love her. I put her needs higher in my priorities than my own because I *need* her needs to be met more than mine. There are very good reasons why a truly free Christian doesn't lie, steal, or cheat that have nothing to do with a list of 10 rules: he has come to share in God's view of the truth; God's view of justice; God's view of fidelity. Because of the relationship, those things are more important to him than the apparent rewards of sin. Arthur at 3:02pm March 16 I couldn't' agree more, it's love to Jesus Christ that should make us desire to do his will, not a set of ten commandments; although they are some good morals if you want to follow them. Tim at 3:30pm March 16 It's also Jesus' love in us for others that should cause us to want to understand where they're coming from in order to be better able to help them along in their search for what is True. Trying to convince an atheist that atheists are worse than Christians, or that the horrors committed by Christians aren't so bad when compared to this or that group (which you lump them into) only serves to justify yourself and perpetuate the argument. "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."~2 Tim 2:23-26 Which will free captives from Satan's trap: humiliation or humility?


  1. I feel more free than any drug addict
    -Arthur @ 2:38pm March 16

    It's funny he should say that, considering Christopher Hitchens is a raging alcoholic. And I don't mean ha ha funny. He can't seem to appear on television without being completely plastered. It's sad.